Craig Ramsey hadn’t planned on playing the Cleveland Music Festival. Now in its 11th year, the annual showcase embodied the local rock rat race that never much interested the indie veteran.
But a “talent buyer” from the show’s promoter, Gorilla Productions, sold Ramsey on the idea. He said he too was in a local band, and that this show was going to be different — not just another Gorilla mishmash of a dozen local acts tossed haphazardly onto the same bill.
HotChaCha, a well-regarded all-girl indie-rock quartet, would beheadlining. Ramsey’s band would get an unspecified cut of the ticket sales. Plus, it was the Cleveland Music Festival, a must-see showcase of 200 of the city’s finest acts playing before music-industry reps from all over the country.
“He told me it was going to be insane,” recalls Ramsey. “He said it would be packed. It was quite the opposite.”
The insane crowds never showed, and neither did prominently billed indie bands Lighthouse & the Whaler and Film Strip, though their names did appear on the festival schedule. Those who didn’t show up mostly didn’t miss much.
Though crowds were much better at downtown venues, Ramsey remembers around 20 people watching his self-titled band and others perform at Cranky’s, a scene clubhouse on the near West Side.
By night’s end, the only Gorilla rep in the place quietly disappeared, and only one band — HotChaCha — had pocketed the money it had been promised. “I tried something different, and it didn’t work,” says Ramsey. “I never ended up getting paid. Lesson learned. It was a bad experience.”
From the tiniest clubs to the biggest arenas, the rock & roll business involves jumping through a lot of hoops and killing a lot of time between each one. Gorilla gives aspiring rockers a crash course in both. Launched in 2006 by brothers John Michalak and Dan Cull, Gorilla employs 20 full-time workers in Cleveland and another 65 independent contractors to coordinate events from Texas to Toronto.
The shows it promotes employ a controversial business model that has proven successful for Gorilla but deflating to some of the countless bands who claim they’ve been exploited. The company has helped a handful of artists find nominal record deals — and it’s initiated almost as many lawsuits aimed at quashing the foul words of detractors.
“As outside promoters, they do the strongest events in town,” says Peabody’s partner Chris Zitterbart. “I think it’s the concert promoter’s job to promote the event, and Gorilla Productions does that better than any other promoter does. They make fliers. They make posters. They’re all over the web. They teach bands how to be successful.”
Michalak and Cull have been around a long time, and they have plenty of friends in the business. These days,
they’re cultivating more enemies too.
Gorilla Climbs the Ladder
“Promoters are their own breed,” says Steve “Skinny” Felton, leader of the theatrical Cleveland metal band Mushroomhead, a satisfied Gorilla client. “They’re in it for fame, a little of the money, and a little of the lifestyle.”
The men behind Gorilla Productions got their share. Michalak is a bassist with a lifelong interest in the business. From 1995 through 2001, he owned the rock club Peabody’s DownUnder, ground zero for original music in the then-booming East Bank of the Flats. It’s where stars like the Replacements and Weezer introduced themselves to Cleveland, and where a cavalcade of local and national acts kept the place packed most nights of the week.
But Michalak unloaded the club in 2001 to his younger brother Dan, a rock & roll socialite who had helped bands like Mushroomhead, Integrity, and Brandtson cultivate followings in the ’90s. Times were changing in the bar business, especially after the economy tanked following 9/11. Gone were the days when a local club could meet a headliner’s guaranteed fee simply by banking on gangbuster bar sales.
As Cull ran Peabody’s, Michalak reinvented himself as a full-time concert promoter, doing business as Sugarlight Productions. Local promoters like Spotlight Talent and (later) Hardcore Marketing were running successful shows based on a new model: They would add a half-dozen local bands to the bill and have them all sell tickets. With six groups, then seven, and eventually 12 or more bands on the bill, the promoters had effectively recruited dozens of musicians to plug the show on the streets, thus taking a couple thousand dollars of worry off their minds. Depending on whom you talk to, Michalak either improved or tore down the business model.
In 2000, he and Cull took the method to its extreme with the first Cleveland Music Festival, a mega-band, multi-venue showcase. Then they exported it: In Texas three years later, Michalak organized the first Dallas Music Festival. National acts like Edwin McCain headlined among nearly 400 local bands, playing in 20 venues over four days. Dallas Observer called it “the city’s best-organized and least interesting festival.”
Meanwhile, as nightlife in the Flats went downhill, Peabody’s moved across town to its current location near Cleveland State, where it resumed its role as a force in Cleveland nightlife. Alt-rock bands and heavy headliners took the stage after a legion of opening acts on two stages, sometimes three. In the pit, behind the bar, upstairs in the office, it was a good time — if you had time to kill and didn’t mind wandering from room to room to find a band you wanted to see … or escape the ones you didn’t.
“When Dan owned Peabody’s, he was a rock star and Peabody’s was like Cheers,” one local musician recalls. “Everybody knew him and wanted to hang.” But not everybody viewed the burgeoning Gorilla business model in the same light.
“Dan Cull was the architect that took Peabody’s from being a great rock club, where you could see a diverse two-, three-band bill of good music, and made it into a metal-based club where any shitty band can buy their way onto the bill — or even headline — if they sell enough tickets,” says one Cleveland music-industry lifer, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “And oh yeah, now instead of two, three bands, you have 10, 12 bands.”
During business hours, Cull was a charismatic quick thinker and fast talker whose staff tried to keep up with his manic plans. “He makes more promises than he can deliver,” says a former Gorilla employee. “A human tornado,” as another music insider puts it.
Cull cashed out of Peabody’s in 2005. It was time to shift full-bore into the promotions business, thus freeing him of the liability of club ownership and opening the doors to better bucks.
As one former Peabody’s employee puts it: “Club owners don’t make money. Promoters make money.” In 2006, Cull and Michalak gave birth to Gorilla and set it loose nationwide.
Cull, the group’s president, brought some Peabody’s employees with him, while VP Michalak recruited some Sugarlight holdovers. Nine former Gorilla employees talked to Scene — all of them anonymously; they all say their ex-bosses are blazing a trail of lawsuits that they want no part of. Each is partial to a different partner and refers to the other as the bad cop in the business.
“The reason John and Dan are good partners is they’re the polar opposite of each other,” says one former worker who favors Michalak. “Dan’s a jock, and John’s a musician. John’s the cold, logical one. Dan’s more emotional. Dan wants to be everybody’s friend, and John is everybody’s friend.”
The Peabody’s Method
Early on, working at Gorilla was more fun than playing Donkey Kong. The crew drank cheap at Peabody’s and stayed late. Based in an Ohio City brick storefront with an attached house, the company still treats employees to exhausting nights out on the town, but its goals have grown more serious. Over the past year, say ex-employees, Cull and Michalak have turned up the pressure, focusing more on artist sales than artist development. Former agents say they called more than 200 acts a week, some working strictly on commission, some on salary.
“They call it the music industry,” recalls a former employee. “But we’re not in the music industry. Music industry is Lady Gaga, with millions of units. We’re in concert promotion. All we did was sell tickets and keep whatever was left over. We were called talent buyers. But we were signing local bands that have no draw [and] sending them 100 tickets [to sell]. We weren’t buying talent.”
As Cull explains it, a Gorilla show works like this: The company rents a club and assumes all expenses for the night. Gorilla selects between 8 and 10 bands to perform, accepting applicants or recruiting groups via mass e-mail or phone calls. Gorilla gives bands tickets to sell, typically at around $8 or $10 each. Early on the day of the show, bands meet Gorilla at the club and deliver the take from their sales. Sell a predetermined amount of tickets — often 20 or more — and they pocket a certain dollar amount per ticket, usually around $5 if tickets sales reach the plan’s top tier.
Sell poorly, and you play one of the first time slots; sell well, and you get a better time.
Recent employees still call it “The Peabody’s Method,” but the Internet offers variations on the theme.
Type “Gorilla Productions” into Google, and the next word that comes up is “scam.” The fourth automatic suggestion is “battle of the bands scam.” About once a month, Gorilla brings a national touring band to Peabody’s, and it also promotes small tours for emerging acts. But its bread and butter are battle of the bands that pit local groups against each other.
Technically, band battles are a two-round process. Four or five first-round shows yield winners, who then sell tickets for the second-round finals a month or more later. The winner of that show — as determined by crowd response — claims 20 hours of studio time and $500. The Gorilla staff then submits the winner’s music to four major labels, and the cycle repeats. That’s 50 or more bands vying for spots on one show. Some promoters question whether it’s a sustainable practice.
“Gorilla Productions is like a strip-mining company,” says a rival promoter. “They take every natural resource that city has and leave the city with nothing to survive on.”
Gorilla also dangles the promise of “a record deal” — which it values at $25,000 — with Rock X Records, a three-person operation owned by Cull and Michalak. Its roster includes two signees, one release, and no album reviews to its credit. The New Jersey funk-rock ensemble Keeping Riley was the outfit’s first artist. Frontman Noah Hercky says Rock X paid to record, press, and promote the disc — and it feels like a real deal. “We’ve got a company behind us,” says Hercky. “We’ve seen the fruits of our labor.”
As of mid-July, the Gorilla website listed 130 shows scheduled from the East Coast to Canada between July and November, with tickets between $8 and $15, and each concert listing between 6 and 24 bands. Of those, 86 are billed as “battle of the bands.” In that kind of competitive field, many bands don’t feel like lucky winners.
“I can tell it’s a little fishy,” says Scott Roger of the Akron metal band Ichabod Crane. “Younger bands can’t. Often times, shows they’re booking don’t have a national band. So they’re having you sell a product that doesn’t have a draw. It’s all local bands. And the tickets are expensive — $10, $12. What’s worth $12?”
Roger recounts playing two Gorilla shows, and he doesn’t remember either fondly. He voices a common complaint: The company overbooks shows, assuming bands will drop out. The only thing worse is when every band shows up, making time slots even more chaotic and unpredictable.
The Gorilla sales pitch varies. Cull says bands can play without selling tickets at all, but Roger says a rep told him if his band didn’t sell, it wouldn’t be guaranteed a slot. Some deal in vagueness and best-case scenarios: He recalls being promised a prime time slot based on how many tickets his band should be able to move; when the band didn’t sell them all, his start time was moved from 8 p.m. to 5:30. “It’s like a bait-and-switch,” says Roger.
A former out-of-town Gorilla rep explains how the business enters new territory: “Gorilla would just go on MySpace and spam bands about playing for them. They targeted a lot of newer and younger bands from that area. They were mostly scream-o metal bands and then turned to a good bit of hip-hop/rap. They would sign up anyone that would reply. It was a decent setup for some kids, because for most of them it was their first time onstage. My personal opinion on Gorilla was that it is a good money-making scheme on kids. Once [bands] realized they could book their own shows, I think they did.”
“You get nothing out of it unless you’re a headliner — no money unless you sell 20 tickets,” says Joe Cox, guitarist of Here Lies Another, a Cleveland metal band with one album under its belt. “They’re not going to help you go further if you’re a local nobody band. It always seems that they get a bunch of shit bands together — bands that shouldn’t even be there. Then they run three stages and make all the money.”
The consensus is that Gorilla works best for bands on the top or the bottom, who have the most to gain and the least to lose. For the considerable space in between, it’s a crap shoot.
“If you’re a high school band just beginning, go with Gorilla,” says Cox. “If you’re a veteran, stay away.”
“They were willing to let us play. That was the cool thing,” says a current promoter who paid his dues playing Peabody’s band battles. “When we were younger, we didn’t look at it like a scam. The incentive was: You get to play Peabody’s. We did make some connections, so we thought it was good.”
But according to past Gorilla employees, that also means over-promising and under-delivering.
“Gorilla was selling pre-teens on the idea of becoming rock stars, then leaving them disappointed when they figured out that the battle of the bands is much different than the way that Disney makes it look,” says one former employee. “When I told my parents and friends outside of the industry about what angered me about my job, the stories of hopeful kids with their Christmas-present guitars getting taken for the ride was always what hit them the hardest.”
The Gorilla Festival
At the 2010 Cleveland Music Festival in May, more than 200 acts played at a dozen venues. Headliners included Wolfpac and Critical Bill, two rap-rock groups with national cult followings. Key venues like Peabody’s and the Agora reported good attendance; Michalak claims the company sold 6,000 weekend passes.
In recent years, Gorilla has added advice panels and a pig roast for industry professionals flown in from out of town — executives from labels big and small, writers, booking agents, and others. Attendees have included music pundit/MTV alum/label exec Matt Pinfield and behind-the-scenes pros who’ve worked with groups like Linkin Park.
To date, the major success story from ten years of Cleveland Music Festivals has been Salt the Wound, an abrasive local underground metal band. At the 2007 festival, the group impressed a rep from the California indie metal label Rotten Records, which signed them and released two records.
After this year’s fest, Atlantic Records A&R rep Jeff Blue inked a deal with singer-guitarist Lance, formerly of Dangerous New Addiction, and says he’s “looking at” two other local groups.
“A lot of good came out of that conference,” says Blue, who notes that Cull personally shepherded him to see 20 artists. “There’s a lot of bands. I had a great time.”
Like most promotion professionals, Cull has a tendency to oversell. Asked to name some of Gorilla’s success stories, he mentions three artists — two of them with connections to the promoter that are tenuous at best. First, he name-checks Kate Voegele, a local singer-songwriter with a major-label deal. “She did really well on a show at CMF,” says Cull. “And as you know, Kate Voegele now is doing really, really well. She was on our event, and we do a lot of that: We’ll have national artists that break after playing on our events.”
Asked to clarify, Cull says he doesn’t claim Voegele as a Gorilla or Music Fest success; he was just talking about her. Voegele’s father, one of her early managers, says he’s never heard of Gorilla, Cull, or Michalak. Another of her former handlers says she made her industry connections elsewhere.
Cull also cites Chimaira, the city’s ambassadors to the international metal scene, who have moved nearly half a million copies of their five albums. “That was my very first battle of the bands winner” recalls Cull. “They’re doing great now.”
“They have nothing to do with it,” Chimaira bassist Jim LaMarca says of Gorilla. And Cull, pressed for details, doesn’t disagree.
“All the personal success stories that we’ll ever have are really attributed to the artist,” he says. “The artist makes themselves successful, not Gorilla Productions. We just give them the education to make them a success.”
Cull also cites his friends in Mushroomhead, and band leader Felton agrees that the two parties have had successes together.
“I think their intentions are genuine,” says Felton. “Whether it works out for everyone or not … In Cleveland, who else are you gonna work for? I don’t see anyone else putting on CMFs.”
The Gorilla Suits
When Gorilla set up shop in Washington state, it hit up area bands primarily through the Internet. Through phone calls and mass e-mails, Michalak eventually reached one group whose lineup includes the nephew of Bon Von Wheelie, the drummer of Girl Trouble, a veteran but wholly obscure garage-rock band from Tacoma. The rookie ran the deal past his aunt.
To Von Wheelie (the nom de rock of Bonnie Henderson), the arrangement smelled like “pay to play” — a hot-button term that generally refers to any band paying a club or promoter to perform. Her website, neverpaytoplay.com, dissects how Gorilla and similar companies operate. She derides the practice of catering to “local” bands by sending mass e-mails via MySpace, resulting in overloaded, mismatched bills and prizes that ultimately disappoint.
Gorilla wasn’t hearing it: The company sued three members of Girl Trouble and the band’s record label for “tortuous, defamatory, and false statements,” seeking damages in excess of $25,000 for their trouble. The case is pending in the Cuyahoga County Court of Common Pleas.
“We hear it from groups who don’t want to sell tickets. And we hear that we’re pay to play, and we don’t think that’s an accurate term, because ‘pay to play’ means you pay someone to play,” says Michalak. “We don’t require anyone to sell tickets, and there’s no participation fee. We’re affected by that [accusation] and hurt by it.”
Michalak insists neverpaytoplay.com is harming the business prospects not only of his company, but of every independent concert promoter in the country. Cleveland’s 2/20 Productions, whose website says it operates in 40 markets across the country, has joined the suit. Michalak hopes others will pile on.
Wade Neal, Girl Trouble’s Washington lawyer, says it’s a textbook “SLAPP” case, which stands for Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, a financial strong-arm tactic to censor opponents by dragging them into expensive legal proceedings.
Their claim has some precedent: Liz Kramer, a 24-year-old college graduate who spent a year as a Gorilla booker, left the company in 2009 and posted a list of reasons she left on her blog, most of which painted the company in an unflattering light. Gorilla sued her for $40,000, claiming she had damaged its reputation and violated an anti-competition clause in her contract. The parties settled, and final court fees were billed to Kramer. (Kramer refused to discuss Gorilla for this story, citing the terms of the settlement.)
Twenty-six states — including Girl Trouble’s Washington — have passed anti-SLAPP legislation, and six more have bills pending. Ohio is not among them. Girl Trouble’s lawyer says the website simply presents Henderson and the band’s opinions, backed by facts.
“Her opinion was: She didn’t like it and wanted to speak up about it,” says Neal. “Her opinion was: They can do what they’re doing, but we can talk about it. They’re using the courts as a weapon to shut people up. What if every company was like Gorilla? One of the greatest threats to free speech is not the government or [large] corporations — we have a series of medium companies that are thin-skinned.” (Henderson declined to be interviewed for this story.)
Though Cull says Gorilla business is up this year, he and Michalak also say the site’s detailed claims and snarky attitude are draining their wallets and scarring their souls.
According to their suit, neverpaytoplay.com has resulted in “the loss of business opportunity caused by Defendants [that has] caused Plaintiffs to suffer from severe psychic injury including headaches, nightmares, and a lessening of Plaintiff’s activities of daily living due to depression and anxiety.”
Gorilla’s claim that it doesn’t force artists to sell tickets could be supported by Cleveland singer-songwriter Nicholas Megalis. Instead, he’s the defendant in another suit brought by the company.
Now 21, Megalis has been a bright light on the scene for years. His 2008 album, Praise Be Hype Machine, established him as an artist with vision and talent. For months, representatives from Gorilla visited his shows, he says. They promised to help him break into the big time. They assured him they knew people, and that a headlining national tour was only a few phone calls away. And he wouldn’t have to sell his own tickets.
Young and hungry, Megalis already had a good reputation in town, and he was ready to take it to the next level. In August 2008, he signed a management contract with Gorilla.
Within a week, Megalis was playing before 10,000 people on a bill with Nine Inch Nails at Quicken Loans Arena. Tommy Judson, a former Gorilla band manager and promoter, was quick to take credit for the score on his LinkedIn profile. Gorilla still counts Megalis’ gig with NIN as a major feather in its cap. But the show was actually set up by the local office of the national concert promoter Live Nation and by Nine Inch Nails’ management. It happened before Megalis had anything to do with Gorilla.
The promoter did get Megalis on a big show in October 2009: the massive New Orleans Voodoo Music Experience festival. The singer’s name appeared among others in a full-page Rolling Stone ad. But more people saw the ad than the set: Megalis reports that his 11 a.m. side-stage gig was witnessed by a crowd of six.
Megalis spent a year traversing the country, playing Gorilla shows that consisted of shared bills with seven or more bands; he usually took the stage after the night’s top ticket-seller. Megalis recalls playing to a good crowd in New York City, but also showing up at a Texas club to find it had no gig scheduled. (Gorilla declined to confirm or deny the claim.)
Megalis split with Gorilla in November 2009, after his contract expired. He claims he made no money during his 15 months with them. When he told Gorilla he didn’t want to renew, the company filed a $66,000 breach-of-contract lawsuit in January against the singer and his dad, whose advice allegedly usurped the company’s exclusive managerial authority. Cull and Michalak say they can’t discuss the case.
“I trusted Dan,” says Megalis. “And I trusted John with my career. I have all this wasted time. It feels like my career was stopped, and my advances as an artist [were] slowed down.”
The Non-Promoting Promoters
Things haven’t slowed for Asleep, and the Youngstown rock band is happy to share the credit with Gorilla Productions. They are one of several bands on nationwide tours set up by the promoter this year. Asleep and Cleveland hip-hopper Chip Tha Ripper both played well-attended showcases at South by Southwest, the music fest in Austin, Texas.
“I don’t think we’ve ever played one less-than-stellar show [with Gorilla],” says Jon Dean, guitarist of Asleep. “We had a little special treatment, but it was nice to work with someone who lived the music as much as we did.”
Most bands that deal with Gorilla don’t get the special treatment afforded Asleep and Chip Tha Ripper. Then again, concert promoters are rarely liked among anyone other than their most successful clients and others riding the gravy train. After all, it’s their job to squeeze every possible entertainment dollar out of your debit card.
“Dan and John are good guys,” says a former Gorilla employee. “They just try to do too much. The problem is, they do quantity, not quality. You’re working with thousands of bands a year. Bands fall through the cracks, and those bands get pissed.”
Cull says he’s available to personally discuss grievances with any band that hasn’t benefited from its time with Gorilla.
“We do everything we can to help local groups grow,” says Michalak. “We don’t force anyone to be on our shows. If there is any negative feedback out there, it’s generally that bands are confused because they think it’s someone else’s job to promote them.” It’s a curious quote coming from a concert promoter.
“They pretty much don’t do anything but print the tickets and take the money,” says Nick Riley, drummer for Film Strip, one of the bands that heard Gorilla’s pitch to play the Cleveland Music Festival and took a pass. “They push the work off on everybody else. I’m pretty sick of that being what people think of when they think of Cleveland.”
Send feedback to dferris@clevescene.com.
This article appears in Jul 28 – Aug 3, 2010.
My path and the path of John and Dan has crossed many many times. I’m also one of the guitar playing fools in the band The Joemones and once the line up for the band comes togather I”m going to call on those Gorilla guys and from what I’ve seen and heard I feel their going to do us right. Either we will make it, hahaha, or we won’t. Music is a fickle business man, the small percentage of bands that ever “make it” proves that. Quit crying and suck it up, the world already has enough whiners.
Finally an article that shows the Gorilla team for what they are, “Scammers!” I don’t live in Cleveland anymore, but grew up there and played in a pretty visible band while there. Those guys are bad news for the music scene up there. Bands beware and stay away. I live in the south now. I play in two bands and if I ever hear of them coming into my town, I will spread the word for new young bands to stay clear. Gorilla Music is a virus that must be stopped.
I’ve known Dan for a lot of years and my dealings with him and Peabody’s were always great. The band that I played in played the 1st CMF and were treated like kings, got paid, taken out to dinner w/ industry reps, and played in front of a lot of people. After that we were invited to play some bigger shows at Pebody’s and got paid to open in front of 400 people. We also passed on a lot of times where we were required to sell tickets. The business model is what it is, for young bands that are just starting to get going it’s a good thing. A chance to play in front of a good crowd and selling tickets to your friends usually ensures that at least the ticket buyers wil be there. On the other side, if you are an established band it’s a large waste of time. Why go and try and sell a bunch of tickets when you know people will show up anyways? I can see why people are put off by this, but the thing is, nobody is forcing anybody to play these showcases or battle of the bands. It’s definitely something that has it’s pros and cons and for what it’s worth, I’m glad somebody is trying to do something in the Cleveland music scene b/c as a person that used to be involved in it and now somebody that lives in a place with a thriving music scene, Cleveland’s music scene leaves a lot to be desired. At least they aren’t promoting crappy cover bands and paying them a $1000 and snubbing original music which seems to be the case these days.
Thank you for a very balanced article. Gorilla is selling dreams to groups and individuals who dream of a successful future in the music business. It allows exposure for local acts that have no other other means of getting their music out there. A young band needs to sell themselves to become successful. It is real commitment of time and energy. Some bands can’t commit or just don’t have what it takes to make it. Just like pro sports, only the very best make it to the top.
These guys suck. Peabody’s/Gorilla/Hardcore Marketing just hurt “the scene” in Cleveland. Taking advantage of kids. I played the peabody’s battle of the bands. Bad experience. Yea, their may be people in the room, but they’re not fans. They’re the friends and family of each of the bands that begged them to come.
You want to work with a respectable venue in Cleveland? Don’t go to peabody’s. Hook up with the Grog or the Beachland.
Bottom line is that nobody is getting rich owning or working for Gorilla, Peabodys, etc… most of these folks can barely make a living at it. Local music businesses are fun to be a part of but they are money pits that struggle to keep the lights on.
Some unknown local bands sometimes act as if they have a right to play because they exist and a stage nearby also exists. Every band has to pay their dues and part of that is promoting and selling themselves.
Is selling 20 $10 tickets really so painful and unfair? Local bands that do a little work get to play a professional venue in front of potential new fans. Often when a national act is headlining! If a band doesn’t want to sell any tickets.. then figure out some other way to get people interested. Local music businesses aren’t charities that exist to throw a party and provide a stage, lights, sound, security, heat, water, electricity, etc etc etc for your band and its 5 fans. Although their profits are probably similar to those of charities.
A Gorilla event or certain nights at Peabodys give music fans a chance to hang out all night and check out dozens of bands. The majority of the bands enjoy playing. If a band can’t generate any interest in itself or convince anyone to buy a ticket… well…
I manage a Rock Band in Charlotte NC and have done alot of shows with Gorilla Productions and have to say that people just dont get it!!!Gorilla has helped many of bands such as mine “All Thee Above” comprised of 17 year olds with a passion. They were tought to self promote, a band with drive gets noticed and “ATA” has sold hundreds of tickets and have been paid.We have the honor playing in front of 800-1000 fans due to the help of John and Dan.We have always had contact with John and Dan, they have given “ATA” direction and it is up the the bands to use it..Nothing is for free you need to earn it!!!Yes Remember there are Two sides to every Story.
Great, great article. These clowns are ruining the scene for the up and comers. Veteran bands already know to steer clear of this nonsense.
If they had any real, measurable success, they wouldn’t be spamming US to play Battle of the Bands – we’d be seeking THEM out. Another bunch of hucksters that just want to hang out, drink, do drugs, and take credit for the hard work of the bands.
Any great band can get what these guys promise on their own merit – why associate yourself with this negative reputation. Did we not learn from Phil Lara?
If I was a band, I would be leery about working with them…simply because I tried to reach out to Gorilla, Hardcore Marketing, and Lane Productions about advertising their shows in different magazines and all three companies didn’t think it was wise to advertise their shows in front of a perfect target audience (most of the people who don’t come to downtown Cleveland shows anymore are the ones who live an hour outside of the city). If I was the one making decisions for my band, that would be a red flag that operations of these companies are amateur at best and to stay clear of them. They don’t do anything for a band that a band can do for themself. The record label thing is a joke. Any one can create a label, print up some cds and say they are a bona-fide record label so don’t fall into the hype machinery.
Additionally, a few of these companies may “represent” a national band for booking. Truth is…you can start your own booking agency and you too can represent these same bands.
I repeat again to any bands out there…YOU DON’T NEED THESE SMALL TIME COMPANIES…THEY CAN’T DO ANYTHING FOR YOU THAT YOU CAN’T DO ON YOUR OWN. Save your money. Do your homework. It’s ashame how these companies have dragged down a music scene by greed and their ability to drive music fans away from shows.
Haters hate all day, Players play all day. My band was sent on TOUR to Florida from Ohio, by Gorilla Prod. My band played in front of 2000 people, with two other bands, Gorilla productions show. If your band is not good, maybe you shouldn’t battle. My band kicks ass and takes names, and Gorilla did a lot for us. I was also in a band that battled and played Peabody’s when Dan was the owner. Again that band kicked ass too. We played whatever show we wanted, got paid every time, drank as much as we wanted. If 90% of bands are not good, and can’t get people to show up for a show to support them, then yeah, there’s going to be a lot of bands that lose. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! We didn’t, we won and GORILLA PRODUCTIONS TOOK CARE OF US! Nothing but a bunch of losers and haters, and, DX, how long have you known Dan and Jon, HUH? Long time you’ve known them, but latley they haven’t spent a lot of money on you, so when YOUR BUDDIES BAND, gets a bad slot, and then no one shows up for them, cuz they aren’t good, DX Ferris to the rescue. What a joke.
@RealDeal – good for you, dude. I’m happy for your success. You could’ve done it without them.
Those guys have never been anything but shady. My band has success, and we did it without them, without the cattle-call 17 band shows at Peabody’s, and without paying anyone but ourselves. Presale tickets? Bullshit. Not needed. If you’re any good, people show up. Preselling is for bands with more friends than fans, and parents with credit cards.
Also, good bands don’t need to battle – they just get the shows they want from the start.
@Venomin, dude, how was my band going to go on tour to Florida and back without Gorilla? We wouldn’t have. I’ve worked in The Music Industry for over 15 years. I’ve seen signed bands on tour, with NOBODY at the show, over and over again. We were on our FIRST tour, and there was people at every show. Most of the shows were nuts, people everywhere. We made so many new fans, freinds, and sold a ton of merch to people that had never seen us before. Gorilla did that.
How was my band supposed to get on a sold out show, in front of 2000 people, 3 bands total, without Gorilla? We wouldn’t of. You think Michael Belkin would of put us on a show that he didn’t need us to sell tickets for, HELL NOOOO! Gorilla did that. Sure 99.9% of Gorilla bands didn’t get that show, but WE DID, DON’T WE COUNT? Dude performing live in front of a HUGE crowd, ain’t for everybody. You have to work really hard to get there, practice.
@ Clevemusicfan, Seriously buddy, do you know how you build a fan base? If you get signed, you’re put on the road as a support band. Your job, cuz it is a job now, is to win over the Headliners fans, so maybe you can get to be a Direct support band, where you have to win over a bunch more of the headliners fans, then maybe you can think about becoming a headliner. When both my bands played and won the battles we were in, we WON over other bands fans, and if we couldn’t do that, then what ‘s the point of battling. Shows cost a lot of money and at the end of the night when the bills are due, the show hopefully made enough money to pay, or else you might get put in the poor house.
as a fan, “who is your band, why should I care?” (answer: as a band, MAKE me care, promote yourself, sell me a ticket, otherwise, I might not even remember you’re playing and won’t show up. If I spend money, you bet your ass I’ll be there)
as a promoter/venue: “who is your band, why should I care, how many people can you bring?” (answer: as a band, it is YOUR job to get the attention of the people who will potentially book you. How many promoters out there book bands just because they are “good”? There’s always bills to pay, and the bands who can draw the biggest crowds are going to be the ones who get booked)
Not every business model is perfect, not every customer will be happy all the time. Most bands get out of any experience what they put into it. If band doesn’t want to play with gorilla, who cares? If they do, who cares? For most younger, inexperienced bands, playing a battle gives them the confidence to continue, gives them the opportunity to get their foot in the door at the venue, or maybe they’ll realize their parents are the only ones who support them and maybe they should just become a doctor or something else instead.
This article is a bit too late, and overall, won’t change anything in the Cleveland music scene. Being part of a local act for 8 years, released 4 CD’s, the last one lead us to a signing with an Indie Label. We’ve played the Fest’s, opened for numerous national acts and dealt with Gorilla, Hardcore Markt. and Peabody’s. We’ve done the ticket selling and honestly bought tickets to secure us better time slots. This selling tickets for time slots idea is not honest, and the battle of the bands hurt the actual talented bands vs. mom bought all the tickets. We stopped dealing with these promoters because we didn’t want the lies/promises. We went directly to bookers for shows, proved ourselves as a drawing band and played our asses off.
How’s the Cleveland local music scene these days? (cricket…cricket)
Actually when was the last time you saw a good local act that wasn’t your own band? Also, the concert patrons in Cleveland. Arms crossed 20ft. from the stage and you’re lucky to get a “woot” or clap. Clevelanders don’t go to shows just to listen and enjoy locals. They go see their friends play, then leave. How dare they show interest in other bands that night….(laughable.)
I’m glad this article was written, but this “scam” (cough) promotion has been going on for at least 5-10 years now and there’s huge damage to the local scene because of it. When tickets sales and money, out-weigh actual talent I have a huge problem with that.
That doesn’t mean local acts are let off the hook. If you don’t promote yourself, don’t practice your ass off, learn as much as you can about the industry, have good songs and perform like a pro, then why would a venue want deal with you? They deal with you because you can sell tickets. CHA-CHING!
If a band has it’s wits about them, then you make it happen for yourself. Prove to everyone else that the music is worth their attention. Rent venues yourself and put on your own shows. You might want to try that out.
Just like A&R reps say, “If I haven’t already heard of you, why do I care?”
Now that Phil Lara has skulked away and is hiding in an extended stay motel it looks like Scene has found someone new to vilify. However to compare the two is just ridiculous. Lara overpaid bands, gave away tons of food and liquor and put bands on bills they didn’t deserve. Bands weren’t asked to sell tickets and many locals received ludicrous guaranties on shows that were attended by 30 people. He was a liar, and a dumb one at that, but never viewed local bands as just a revenue stream. Somewhere in his deluded, warped mind he wanted to do something positive for the music scene. He just knew absolutely nothing about music…or the Cleveland scene.
As for Gorilla, I despise their spam marketing techniques and urge everyone that shares this sentiment to report them to the respective social networking site where this occurs. Promoters tend to be sycophants and hangers on whose lack of talent and creativity force them to find an alternative means to enter or remain in the music scene. That being said, they tend to be a necessary evil, and some even have integrity and are good at what they do. No one is twisting arms here. Bands are free to do as they choose. If they are ignorant enough to believe the bullshit that’s being slung then they deserve to be chewed up and spit out by the machine. They either decide this isn’t for them or they emerge stronger and wiser. I personally despise Gorilla and their ilk for some many reasons, none of which were addressed by this article. I hate that is it necessary to have to ever combine the terms “Music” and “Business” and I loathe those that put business before the art of music. If bands want to be successful here’ the key: Don’t suck. Practice hard. Learn to write a song. Do your own thing and don’t jump on trends. Gorilla’s biggest crime? Giving hope to shitty bands.
It is interesting to read an article like this in Scene, which is so fully ensconced in it’s “scenester” mentality that it does very little for locals outside of an ordained few. Are Gorilla’s tactics much different then, say, a magazine or newspaper that may tend to inflate its circulation numbers and over value their ad space at the expense of struggling clubs? Business is business.
Sounds like clevelandmusicfan’s band didnt have any fans. Try taking your no fan having band to the grog or beachland and see if you get asked back.
great videos
GORILLA PRODUCTIONS Presents – CHIP THA RIPPER live in Concert @ Santos Party House NYC –
KID CUDI came through to show some love!! Last Friday July 23rd 2010 –http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJMfxfaxqo…
CLEVELAND MUSIC FEST 2010 – Gorilla Productions Presents – Keeping Riley – Live at House Of Blues – CMF 2010 – USE URL TO WATCH –http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbHZuJFcP98
Gorilla Productions Presents – KID CUDI SOLD OUT CONCERT – 1-15-10 – LIVE AT THE AGORA – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDQvqKe28cc
GORILLA PRODUCTIONS Presents – One of Cleveland’s top up and coming bands iPhonic – opening up for Kid Cudi Live at the Agora!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dT0gGnkHuo
D.X. Ferris is from Pittsburgh! Lame Ass! No wonder he is trying to Shit on Cleveland’s Music Scene. Fuck D.X. Ferris and Scene Magazine – Get a real job loser!
Lets talk about a real scam – Ohio Homecomings Show – They advertise the ohio homecomings show as a free event at first, then turns out u have to buy a $15 tshirt or $10 stomp ticket to get to see Kid Cudi and Chip Tha Ripper Free. Then they advertise that u can still buy a t shirt at the gate and get half the city to the show Just to find out you can NOT get into the event unless u pay $25 bucks!!! and to top it all off Chip Tha Ripper didnt even do his own set. Now thats a scam!!! Shady!!
Scene Magazine Scammed 5,000 kids – For The Ohio Homecomings Show – Chip Tha Ripper Did Not have a set to perform!!!!!
Straight From Scene Magazine Website –
Chip Tha Ripper, Kid Cudi to Celebrate Cleveland’s Birthday
POSTED BY JORDAN ZIRM ON TUE, JUL 13, 2010 AT 12:22 PM
Chip and Cudi team up to headline Cleveland’s birthday celebration
Good afternoon Cleveland. It’s almost your birthday! For 214 years you have stood strong, but don’t worry, you don’t look a day over 172! To celebrate, Ohio Homecoming has gathered some of the best musical acts in the state and will be bringing them to Public Square. On July 22, best buds Kid Cudi and Chip Tha Ripper
Real, Actual Scams need to be brought to light! Not this Bullshit…..
If Gorilla Productions were one iota of an advocate for all the bands out there who are just trying to make it on a shoestring budget, they wouldn’t be suing these same bands for thousands and thousands of dollars simply for expressing opinions. Apparently, they believe the almighty dollar trumps freedom of speech! I wonder how many of these previous comments that support Gorilla are from the brainwashed flying monkeys that work for Gorilla. So you had such an excellent experience? Well, what’s the name of your band? Scared? It is a real shame that so many naive bands are taken for a ride…okay, so maybe it is a learning experience…maybe if a kind soul alerted them to being cautious about working with a company like Gorilla, it could save them a lot of time, energy, and resources that could be used for actually promoting their own flipping band. I hope Gorilla will take a bow for contributing to a lame-o music scene and taking all the heart and creativity out of music…sad for the scene and a loss for not only Cleveland but all of the cities Gorilla has invaded. This is a big deal for musicians as well as everyone…ie. anyone who wants to be able to express a simple opinion without being slapped with a lawsuit. Gorilla is just worried that everyone will find out the truth. This article is rad and it is long overdue. Nice youtube videos. Ha.
I’m in a band and all I have to say is, you guys are lazy.
Having bands sell tickets gives them a chance to gain a fan base over time. Bands that don’t have fans just won’t get booked. Bands that do well are given opportunities other bands aren’t, and are taught and encouraged to put on their own show. It’s risk vs. reward, and last time I checked, we lived in a capitalist society. Don’t like it? Move. Want to be appreciated for your art? Play in your back yard where you foot the bill for rent, electricity and water and wait for people to show up.
Fizzy: You “tried” to reach out to promoters to tell them where to promote? Now you are in charge of companies advertising budgets now? Who are you? Do people go to your job and tell you not only what to do, but how to spend your money? If advertising was free, everyone would do it in every publication out there. Promoters don’t drive fans away from shows. Fans come to see the bands, not the promoters. And you can’t just “start your own” booking agency and tell people you represent a national band. Just plain silly. You are the amateur, at best.
EofA: Timeslots based on drawing ability is the MOST honest way to do it. From a show at Blossom, on down to a show at Peabody’s or anywhere else in the world. It’s the way timeslots are determined in the business. If you don’t like it, it’s because you were on the short end of the stick. Or promoters should just start putting the headliners on at 8 to see if the openers (now called closers) get any exposure by doing it that way. You run a show that way and you can write us all and tell us how it went.
Clevelandmusicfan: More people at shows doesn’t hurt the scene, it builds the scene and empowers it. People like you placing blame and pointing the finger hurts the scene. The scene doesn’t suck for everyone, it just sounds like it sucks for you.
Spaceman: let me get this straight, promoters are responsible for taking out all the heart and creativity out of music. The promoters write the music now? I’ve never asked a promoter to write a song or collaborate with me. If people write music without heart and soul, its because they lack both. Blaming it on someone else is insane. BUT if you sit home writing songs about how everyone brings you, other bands, and the scene down, I do see how it can have a bummer effect on your song writing skills.
Bottom line, go talking to a bunch of losers from unpopular bands and you’ll get a lot of unhappy people, and a lot of shit talkers. Bands that don’t draw have a lot to be unhappy about, and everyone in the world to point the finger at. These bands that bitch don’t draw or have fans, don’t successfully tour, and don’t have a shot at getting signed by anyone legitimate. I’d be pissed too! Bands, don’t blame the scene, promoters, venues, or anyone else for the state that you find yourself in. Look in the mirror. If people aren’t there, it might be because you are lazy, people just don’t like your band, or a combination of the two. Band doesn’t bring a lot of people, band doesn’t make a lot of money. Band brings in lots of people, band makes a lot of money. Wow that was difficult. If you don’t draw, or don’t sell tickets, you won’t get booked anywhere. No club owner, manager, booker, promoter, bartender, other band on the bill or FAN wants a band that has no fans. Don’t like having to bring people to play clubs? Play your garage and invite your friends.
@Spaceman, you have to much hate in your heart. The two bands I was talking about are IPHONIC and DRUNKEN FUNK. Screw you guy, I ain’t afraid of shit talkin fools.
@realdeal Yes. I do know how to build a fanbase. Play legitimate shows. At legitimate venues. With legitimate bands. Promote your shows. Yourself. It’s not hard. Aligning yourself with Gorilla HURTS your credibility. The second I see anything presented by Gorilla, I stop paying attention because I know it sucks. Because I know it’s going to be a 12 band bill at a crappy venue with a bunch of bands that are 5th generation ripoff postpunk/hardcore and or “modern” rock bands. I’ve been spammed by Gorilla asking to play the battle of the bands many times. No thanks. There are 15 year olds whose money you’ll be better at taking.
$1 up to $5 per ticket!? Book a show at the grog and keep ALL the money. I’ve booked many shows for venues and for my own projects. I’ve always been able to pay bands decently, without making them sell tickets. And you know what, I selected the bands based on whether or not they were good. Not just whoever wants in, come and get your tickets! Fans come to shows. Family members buy tickets.
“The Music Industry” become less and less relevant by the minute. It’s not about getting “signed” anymore. Those are pipe dreams of high school kids. Amanda Palmer released an ep of Radiohead covers on the uke. She released it on bandcamp.com on her own for free and made $15,000 in three minutes. You don’t need a label. If you’re good, you don’t have to play battle of the bands.
Honestly, when I read the roster for CMF, I was very impressed that Lighthouse and the Whaler, Craig Ramsey and Hot Cha Cha were performing. For a split second I thought maybe the organization went out and found some integrity. Oops.
@loudnoises: “We don’t force anyone to be on our shows. If there is any negative feedback out there, it’s generally that bands are confused because they think it’s someone else’s job to promote them:” Said by Cull. What do you think a promoter is??? Gorilla has taken all the heart and creativity out of the music at their shows and in the scene they are destroying because only Mom and Grandma show up for a particular band and leave when Sonny is finished playing. I say you “promoters” are lazy! Why don’t you get out there and sell the tickets! If it’s such a killer line up, you should have no problem. Instead, the bands have to sell the tickets for your profit. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY…they live in fear of being sued if they speak the truth. Gorilla are the true haters.
This makes me sick. I’m in one of the bands that “passed” on the CMF show. The truth is we tried to give them a shot but they were disorganized and unprofessional. A tentative date went unconfirmed for weeks and maybe 3 days before the show we get a bulk email saying “check out the website for your slot.” It was on the WRONG NIGHT.
The article paints it pretty dramatically but it’s not like we blew them off. In fact it was the opposite. When I book a show for my own band or for anyone else, there are a few details that shouldn’t be flubbed, i.e. the NIGHT OF THE FUCKING SHOW. If you’re willing to endure this type of mismanagement for the sake of “enhancing the scene” or whatever the hell these losers are trying to pass off as artistic integrity these days, you deserve exactly what’s coming to you.
You want an example of some real scene enhancement? Lottery Leagues 2008 and 2010 were truly for the sake of the art of making music and nothing else. They were rightfully enjoyed and championed by everyone involved.
Sure it’s about friends. Our fans are our friends and our friends are our fans. I’m lucky to be at a point where I don’t know all of our fans personally, but I’d love to. They’re not dollar signs and never were.
GORILLA IS awesome!!! They sent my bAnd on a very loocrativ tour of weSt Virginia/ Eastern KentuCky. We were psyched to plAywith Snapcase and Hatebreed all tour long. This was in 2010. mushrooMhead hasn’t been relevant in 15 years. btw haterzz are lazy b/c they do their own promoshunz and can’t afford to pay someone to not promote them.
People with values listen to bands that express/share those values. People without values listen to the spineless voice that tells them to capitalize on anything that moves at the expense of their own credibility. This is a complicated concept and I’m sure it won’t ring true with its intended audience, but at some point you have to ask yourself why you’re doing what you’re doing. If your motives are in the right place, you’re dedicated and talented, the people and the money will come.
DIY is no longer just an ethos and it looks like it won’t long before it’s not a choice either. They have to sue people to keep their mouths shut? Give me a break. What is music if not the battlefield of free speech? PMRC anyone? Censoring Nicholas Megalis? What is he, like Sid Vicious or something? Having a skinny 21 year old kid trash talk you at bonnaroo must really be killing your business. Or maybe it’s the inherent flaws in exploitation substituting for creation.
This type of opprobrium can only be withstood for so long, especially in a scene as insular as Cleveland’s, before people realize a.) it’s not necessary, b.)it’s outdated, and c.) there’s a reason they have to sue people to stay afloat. Maybe this model works in bigger cities, just like how pickpocketing works in big cities. Try picking 2 or more pockets in one day on the Champs Elysees, then try it at Public Square. You’ll get away with it all day in Paris, but in Cleveland? You might get away with it once, but there’s no radar to hide under the second time, for better or worse.
It’s pretty transparent that “most” of the pro Gorilla Productions comments here are being posted by the Gorilla team. Pathetic and sad man. I’ve played in bands around Y-town and Cleveland area since 2003. I’m now mostly in the studio production side, but listen to what’s happening for sure. I’ve met Dan and John many many times. Those dudes are in it for themselves , period. I’ve seen Dan slam drunk and flashing around green while bands walked out without a penny. They prey on young bands and in reality can do nothing for them. Those dudes are not connected in the music business. no more than your uncle from Akron is. They are quickly becoming a big time joke.
@clevelandmusicfan So its all about the money to you? If you take “ALL the money” what pays for expenses at the club? Sounds a little greedy. Selecting bands that are “good” is different from person to person. Your opinion isn’t shared by everyone. You don’t even mention what band you are in or shows you booked. Amanda Palmer might have benefitted for just a hot minute by all the marketing dollars spent by ROADRUNNER RECORDS towards promoting her band The Dresden Dolls and promoting her previous solo releases as well, FOR YEARS. Just might have had something to do with her making 15,000 in 3 minutes. Get your facts straight. Same with radiohead and nine inch nails, so don’t bother bringing them up either. And as for the integrity of the fest by booking your favorite indies, all they had to do was say yes and collect the cash. They don’t act too cool for school when it comes to money. Neither do you.
@spaceman The bands promote their bands, the promoter promotes the show. Without the band promoting first, it goes nowhere. Every band wants to be given that promotional “push” but you can’t give that extra push to a band that isn’t moving already on their own.. It’s the bands job to promote their band. The bands have a direct connection and relationship with their fans, promoters do not. If you have a small fanbase the band has to sell the tickets to ensure their fans show up. If the band has a large fanbase, more promotional dollars can be spent to get the word out. Spending money on ads for bands that have small fanbases doesn’t bring any extra fans out. The bands are lazy. You are probably one of them.
Im not pro or anti gorilla. Im anti lazy band. No one will do for you what you wont do for yourself.
I’m wondering how many of these comments were made by Gorilla employees who were told to post comments pretending they’re in bands who have had positive experiences working with Gorilla.
Websites like http://www.indieonthemove.com are popping up all over the place, demystifying the business aspects of playing music and eliminating the need (if there ever was any) for middleman companies like Gorilla.
However you look at these guys, the fact is they are not upfront with the bands. When you are offered to open up for a national act at Peabody’s, then you get to the show and find out you’re playing in a side room, and they cut you off after 3 songs, you start to wonder. And when you get a call to play at the CMF at the House of Blues, and then 5 days before the show you find out you’re playing at some Mexican restaurant, you feel misled. Why would a company do business this way, and then wonder why people have bad things to say about them? I get that the band should sell tickets and promote their show, but shouldn’t a ‘promoter’ do more than print a flyer and give the band some tickets to sell? I guess that’s why there’s no contract. Cleveland needs something better, much better than this.
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….and how come if Gorilla is so great how come they aren’t getting their bands regular airplay on 107.5 The Fox out of Ashtabula? That station has a hard core following. Try getting your music on WMMS in regular rotation or at peak hours. I bet some of you bands that work with Gorilla don’t even know that there is a golden egg of free promotion waiting for you at that station.
…and you can get on that station for free. You don’t need anyone to represent you. You just send an email to one of the djs and then send in your music. Next you would want to reach out to the North Coast Voice, which is published bi-weekly out in the Ashtabula/Lake/Geauga county areas. It is distributed in areas where the Scene doesn’t reach and these areas are areas that draw people into Cleveland for shows. (by working in this region as well, you leapfrog to the Erie, PA area as well because the Fox airs through Erie to Western NY state just South of Buffalo. I’m not bagging on the Scene. I’m not bagging on Scene either. It’s just there is a huge black hole where people have no clue what is going on in Cleveland because there is no local media network connecting the fans with the music/bands. Geauga County alone is one of the wealthiest counties in the state of Ohio and the Scene mag. has not 1 distribution location in the county. This is where the North Coast Voice comes in. It’s fairly easy to get your band a nice writeup in that mag. Ok…that’s my little lesson for the day. Can’t divulge too much more help on here because I think it’s such a damn shame that these so called “promoters” don’t know what they are doing despite their claims.
I’ve been in this business for 20 yrs and there is a big difference between bands of yesterday and bands of today. In the past the only way to advertise was to go to shows flyer, go anywhere and flyer, flyer polls, etc. Today with the invent of social networking promotions should be a no brainer. You can get bot programs for almost any social networking site and set it to blast a bulletin for you every so often, no effort required. Most bands don’t even do that. They all complain they have no time or they have jobs/families. If you can’t promote your band then you shouldn’t be a musician that plays out. Be comfortable playing at home to your family and friends.
As for promoters, I totally agree that they should be more responsible for promoting any production that they are putting on. If you book a show give bands the proper marketing tools to promote the show (fliers, web links for fliers) and set the headliners up with radio interviews on local radio and local internet radio stations. Send out a press release so that print media is away of the event and can post it in their paper and possibly send someone out to review the show. I also agree that you do not over book a show in hopes that bands will not show up or drop off the bill. If you can’t put time into properly running a show then you shouldn’t do multiple shows. Focus on one at a time putting as much gusto behind it as possible. It shouldn’t be about how much you are lining your pockets with. You should be concerned with putting out a killer show that you can be proud of, that you make a few bones after expenses and the bands walk away with a fair cut of pay.
I don’t think that venues should make local bands sell tickets for local shows. It doesn’t make sense to have 10 locals on a show and have them sell tickets for $12 each and they only get $1 per ticket (if that) and you pocket the other $11, 100 percent of the door and 100 percent of the bar. That is just ridiculous.
When a show is booked it is EVERYONE’S job to promote it: the promoter, the venue and the band. It should be a group effort not just one person’s job.
Word of advice to bands: spend a few dollars and get an entertainment lawyer to draw you up a performance agreement that you can fill in for every show you book. Make sure it covers acts of god, cancellations, what you are to get paid, any special accomodations, how you are to get paid, etc. If a venue or a promoter will not sign your agreement then simply do not do business with these people and you will not be taken advantage of.
As for battle of the bands and “showcases” that you have to sell a retarded amount of tickets for or buy on to, don’t do those either because many of them are scams as well and you won’t get any fame from it. You will probably be forgotten after the first 4 bands.
Research any company that you are thinking about working with (google them, ask for references and call references, ask for their resumes/company portfolio, check with the BBB). Education makes you stronger.
If we all unite we can rebuild the music scene. It’s not beyond repair.
What some bands don’t realize is that each show is set up differently when booking through a promoter. Most of the time the promoter has to pay the venue that they are using along with other things (sound/lights, security, underage surcharge, etc) So that $5-10 ticket/cover charge is helping pay the bands and all of those costs to run the show. What bands don’t realize is that the promoter usually doesn’t touch a penny of the bar sales. The promoter and the venue is usually two separate entities. Bands will want to find this out when booking a show.
From what I’ve seen in the local scene are too many bands that bring less than 10 people to a show and expect to be paid decently. They don’t realize the costs behind the show and most likely the promoter didn’t have enough people to attend the show to pay the costs (venue, lights/sound, etc). Honestly if a band can’t bring 20 people to a show they should just quit. When you break it down that is roughly 4-5 people each band member has to bring depending on the size of the band. That isn’t asking a lot.
The promoters and venues are trying to run a business. They need people through the door to pay costs to run a show. Some bands don’t realize that they are running a business as well. Bands need to quit being lazy and start acting like they are running a business if they want to suceed. Don’t rely on your social networking websites to bring people to your shows. You need to get out there and talk to people. Talk to the people that were at the show that saw the band that played after you. Use your social networking sites as a billboard to get your name out there. Your going to gain more fans at shows by talking to people at shows and anywhere you go.
LOL – Seems like the positive comments from 2010 were from the same IP
some of these comments make me laugh. Since i work for them now. This is the best job i have ever had and best managers as well. U get paid from these shows more than any venue would pay you. If your band sucks and you cant bring people what do you expect seriously. Screw the hater that wrote this and whoever said bad things about this company
Wow I knew Gorilla relentlessly spammed the internet, but this is crazy. Looks like this article really touched on something sensitive. I’m truly embarrassed that these low lives operate out of Cleveland.
Promoters don’t promote anymore. They want the musicians to do everything for them. F•ck that! Venues are the same way. WTF? Gorilla is a shady business. You don’t treat musicians the way that they do. They can stay the hell out of Kentucky. We don’t need their crap.