Soundcheck: Saul Williams

In the mid-’90s, Saul Williams emerged as one of the key figures in the slam-poetry movement. Since then, his work has evolved, and he’s become a pundit as well as a poet. On his most recent release, The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of Niggy Tardust!, he delivers spoken-word vocals to electronic music by Nine Inch Nails’ Trent Reznor. Now Williams has attached himself to the Afro-Punk tour touring the country. Inspired by the 2003 documentary Afro-Punk, the tour is a music-and-arts program that features underground bands like American Fangs, CX KIDTONIK & Tchaka Diallo and TBC. Headliner Williams spoke to us from his home in Paris, where he’s lived since June.

Do you like Paris?

It’s been nice to get away, and it’s good for the mind and spirit to
shift perspective and look at things from a new angle.

What exactly is the Afro-Punk tour? Is it something like an
African-American Warped Tour?

I think of it as creative outreach. Growing up in the ‘hood in New
York, I was hungry for visions of alternative black people. I was
hesitant to take off the uniform of whatever it was that I was supposed
to wear and supposed to like and supposed to be listening to. Anyone
who dared to be different usually suffered a great deal of
ridicule.

Does punk rock have a secret black history we don’t know about or
has it always been a white thing?

I don’t know if there’s a secret history. All you’d have to do is
ask a Jello Biafra or a Henry Rollins about the role that Bad Brains
played in their lives, and it wouldn’t be much of a secret. Bad Brains
is a crucial band. There are other bands like Death that are just
getting popular now. I don’t know if it’s been a secret or just not
thought of. What was happening with Bad Brains in D.C. in the late ’70s
took place at the same time that Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaattaa
and Kool Herc were doing their thing in New York. It’s the same exact
period. It’s almost a fork in a road. We could have gone in a separate
direction.

Do you consider yourself an Afro-Punk?

I don’t consider myself an Afro-anything. I feel like I’ve spent the
majority of my life fighting to not be considered in any box, which is
the irony of being on a tour like this. At the end of the day, I reject
such categories, but I see them as strategic stepping-stones that other
people need.

Speaking of strategic stepping-stones, is that how you see your
connection with the slam-poetry scene?

Probably not, only because I think of strategy as something that’s
sought out and planned. With my relationship to the slam-poetry scene,
it just happened around me. It was an amazing world to fall into as I
was starting to keep a journal. I’ve never called myself a slam poet.
At some point, my poems got too long. When it fit, it fit. More so than
anything, it provided a stage for me at a crucial point in my life when
all I wanted to do was stand up and speak and say what was on my
mind.

Tell me about The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of
Niggy Tardust! and how that came about.

I have often found it quite difficult to create something that on
one hand is clearly representative of what I want to hear and who I am
at and at the same time fits into the box that the executives know how
to market. I put out my first album in the late ’90s, and I was told
“This doesn’t sound like hip-hop to me.” I was like, “Are you assuming
it has to sound like hip-hop because of how I look and where I’m from?
What should hip-hop sound like, according to you, Mr. Executive?” At
that point, I thought it was more important for me to explore my
creative self rather than conform to what is easily sold and marketed.
Niggy Tardust is about me feeling that as strongly and
confidently as ever by having the support of Trent Reznor beside me and
both of us being hellbent on not fitting into one particular genre.
That was the main thing, and within that, I chose that as a platform to
express things about identity and so on and so forth.

Are you working on a sequel?

I’m working on a new album, and by nature it is characterized as a
sequel. Is it a continuation? I have no idea. Creatively, it is where I
am next, but whther the storyline continues, I haven’t decided on that
yet. To be fair, I didn’t decide on Niggy until the very end. It was an
album without a concept, so I think that’s the same thing that will
happen with this album. That name is a powerful name. Some names only
need to be said once. Niggy Tardust says it all. Whether the person
he’s evolved into chooses to step into the spotlight remains to be
seen. But his name is Niggy Pop.

Did you ever think you’d see the election of a black
president?

I never thought that I wouldn’t, but what I was happy to find was it
that wasn’t Al Sharpton. I was just happy that it was someone that I
really, really respected on more levels than one. I respect Rev.
Sharpton, of course. But I was glad to see it was someone that I
respected spiritually and truly see as progressive and not just
hearkening to civil rights. It comes as a welcome surprise, but not
because he’s black. What I never though I’d see is a president who has
a perception of race and reality that’s closer to my own. Truly Barack
Obama is as white as he is black. Maybe because of the fact that he
embodies those worlds and diversity and unification, he is the perfect
candidate. What he symbolizes is wonderful, and he’s stepped into that
role gracefully and eloquently. We all have to step into those roles in
our lives. Change involves every single one of us. As a poet, of course
I recognize the importance of a symbol, but a symbol has to enforce
reality.

Does it make you feel like there’s a wider audience for what you
do?

I always have felt that there’s a wider audience, only because the
entertainment industry is very shortsighted in how intelligent they
think the public is. They do a great job of underestimating the
intelligence of listeners and viewers. In many cases, they’re just
wrong. They’re trying to sell something they’re certain will sell, in
the meantime dumbing things down for an audience that could just as
easily be fed something that truly inspires. Record executives would be
surprised by the intelligence of the vast majority of people who have
something to say. There’s a history of that lack of support —
people who I have admired from Fiona Apple to Jeff Buckley. Their major
labels sold them in Europe first because they thought Americans
wouldn’t be ready for them. It happens with many of us, but I think
those days are near the end, at least for now. The music industry is
shifting, and as long as we stay positive and continue to put out
creative work, I think it will be recognized by those it needs to be
recognized by.

jniesel@clevescene.com

This article appears in Oct 21-27, 2009.