The first half of the segment revolved around a choked-up Andrew Hawkins, whose Tamir Rice T-shirt made the police union all cranky this week. He said he sported the message for his son, whose future as a black man in America is of great concern to him.
The Browns have said they won’t apologize to the police department on behalf of Hawkins, which only rankled the union and its incoming and outgoing leaders even more.
“We’re not apologizing to anybody,” Follmer said. “They need to do it to us.” (“Do” an apology?)
There was an interesting back-and-forth late in the segment as Follmer was being interviewed by host Ari Melber.
AM: “When you say that he, as we read your statement, doesn’t know the facts of the law, how you do apply that logic? Wouldn’t that apply to any citizen who may not be a police expert but has some legitimate view of police conduct? Don’t you think at a certain point that this kind of reaction risks feeding the perception that some of these police unions or some folks here don’t think they’re accountable to public views?”And there’s more, including a moment where Follmer just says Hawkins is “wrong.”JF: “You know, there’s a video of this, and everything speaks for itself. The male’s action spoke for itself. The video clearly shows, and by the officers’ statement, that they were justified in the, in the deadly force.”
AM: “You’re saying that the video clearly shows that the 12-year-old boy was an imminent lethal threat to the officers?”
JF: “Oh, absolutely. I don’t know if you didn’t see it, but yeah absolutely.”
AM: “Yeah, we have some of it up on the screen. We’re showing it. I mean, there’s tremendous disagreement about that. In a lot of cases, that would constitute probable cause for a crime, unless there was lethal, lethal threat to the officers. But ultimately, that isn’t your call, is it? And it’s not the athlete’s call. That’s a call that has to go through the criminal justice system. I guess what I’m trying to get at here is from your statements — and the reason why they’ve upset some people — is your statements seem to presuppose that the police union or the police officers have the final word on the facts here. You know that’s not true. You know we have a system here of criminal justice that leaves that decision up to grand juries and the criminal justice process, right? And people are free to talk about it?
JF: They’re free to talk about it, but it shouldn’t be talked on the football field where we are supporting the Browns by doing security in everyday when we support the Browns. (sic)
This article appears in Dec 10-16, 2014.
I’m not sure why no one is seriously discussing the fact that kids used to die by the police not knowing the gun wasn’t lethal. White, black, purple with orange dots. They died because they pointed a realistic gun at an officer. The gun manufacturers were sued to put the orange tips on the guns so that police would know and not shoot.
This gun had the “safety” removed and an old story played out. This was an avoidable tragedy. WITH the orange tip on, the officer would not have shot.
This isn’t about black and white, it’s not about police v. anyone. It’s about an avoidable tragedy that took a young son and why we should NOT remove a safety piece from a “toy”.
The officer will not be indicted because the officer did not do anything wrong. He reacted to the information he had. He was given the wrong information by the orange piece missing. “Maybe” isn’t good enough when you are facing a gun. “Young” isn’t good enough when it’s life and death. The adults in Tamir Rice’s life need to know – white boys used to die like this too. We mourned their loss and referred to them as “dying by stupid”. Then the orange tips were added so that it didn’t happen again. If Tamir was white – it would be different. We’d try to prosecute the idiot that took the tip off (they already tried, seems it wasn’t actually illegal.) We’d have people “doing” something – like a public service announcement to not take off the orange tips and what they are there for. We would NOT speak out against the police except to ask for ideas of how to stop the violence.
If the officer yelled “drop the gun”, common sense would say that Tamir Rice was reaching in his waste band to do EXACTLY THAT. He very well might have been following the officers command.
For this reason the video that has been released to the public is inconclusive. And for these cops to pound their chests and blindly defend this officer speaks volumes about where their priorities stand. Forget protecting and serving the public. They “protect and serve” other cops.
Here is the rub.
Why do cops put themselves at such a disadvantage by careening within within point blank range of a possible threat in a car…. jump out of the car and start shooting?
Why wouldn’t they stop 20-30 yards from the seated, stationary threat, assess the situation, and then act?
Gotta love it when he brings the fact (again) about the cops providing security for the stadium. I don’t know about you, but I sensed an inferred threat about some kind of a boycott or “sick-out” by the men in blue if they don’t get an apology. Oh wait, there aren’t anymore home games this year so I guess we’ll just have to wait ’til next year. Just like we wait for everything else that goes on at that venue.
dmbader87, I’m not sure where you got that the officer said “drop the gun” because every report I have read or heard is that the officer said “show me your hands.”
concerned citizen, reports are that the driver attempted to stop further away but the car slid on the wet grass.
Why doesn’t Follmer talk about the cop that did the shooting was a first class failure at his previous job as a policeman in Independence, Ohio. His partner even said he was not qualified to be a cip
@ Concerned Citizen – They don’t stop 20-30 yards from the threat because in a crowded area, say in front of a community center, they don’t want to miss if they have to take action quickly. If a kid is pulling what appears to be an actual weapon, that’s a reason to take action quickly. If an officer’s life is being threatened, that’s a reason to take action quickly. If the officer had stopped that far out, there’s a much higher chance they’d hit someone else in the crowd. A pistol doesn’t have a fraction of the accuracy a longarm does.
There are a few areas of profound concern about the professionalism of these officers:
1. Had they attempted to determine the extent of the threat before arriving?
2. had they any knowledge about whether any shots had been fired before they arrived?
3.had they any knowledge about whether anyone had been injured before they arrived?
4.had they determined the presence or otherwise of other civilians in the immediate area, before they arrived?
5. when they arrived why did they drive up so close?
6.if they ‘skidded on wet grass’ as is now being suggested, why were they going so fast into an undetermined threat area with no knowledge of the amount of other civilians that could have been in the vicinity?
7.when they shouted through an open window of a hard braking ‘skidding’ car, were they certain their instructions had been heard?
8. why did the shooting officer leave the protection of the closely positioned car if he had not determined that his instructions had been heard?
9. why did they not shout for Tamir to raise his hands and lie on the ground?
10. why did not both officers fire their guns if the perceived threat was so real?
11. why were these two excuses for policemen even in the job????
keith44.
This guy talks like he is in the Mafia.
“They’re free to talk about it, but it shouldn’t be talked on the football field where we are supporting the Browns by doing security in everyday when we support the Browns.”
So by doing your job that you are legally required to do, we’re all lucky that you’re out there doing it? As in, if you didn’t want to , you’d just let whatever lawlessness go on because it doesn’t appease you’re “people”.
What’s next cops gunna start racketeering to get funding for more military grade weaponry?
Does Follmer even care that THIS is the exact reason that people don’t respect Police officers? I used to dismiss this a lot of cops are good cops and there are some bad apples. But now you are either a bad cop or a cop covering for bad cops. A comment I read elsewhere nailed it…. because some cops do a very tough job in a good way, does not mean you get to be babies about people pointing out that some of you are very “shitty” at it. Cops have themselves to blame for the perception of their profession at this point.
He was a 12 year old “KID” for God’s sake? Just step back for one minute and pretend you are the officer driving the police car, and you were training your son or daughter to be a police officer; and you thought there was a lunatic in the park with a gun. What would you do? I know for fact I would be as far back as possible, behind the cruiser door yelling on the loudspeaker to “drop the weapon”. Why is everyone clouding the facts with the orange tip of the gun, and all the other nonsense?
And then prosecute them.
Hey Mama Rice: Where were you when your kid needed proper training o ho to behave with his gun? There are guns laws and your son broke two of them. Where is the orange tip on his gun? Crime. Why is your son pointing his gun at people? Crime. When you were on TV after this happened you had a hairdo that probably took 4 hours in the salon. Maybe you should have spent those four hours teaching your son how to behave responsibly and respect others. Now I see your lawyers have given you a makeover. Not buying it. My sons are alive because I taught them how to behave appropriately in this world. They are alive because I never let them loiter in a park at the age of 12 UNSUPERVISED. I think the city should sue YOU for being a negligent parent. It is so sad that your son lost his life because you abrogated your parental responsibility.
Too bad your child created a ‘kill or be killed’ situation because you did not give him PROPER TRAINING.
Beau Levi,
You can debate the case all you like, but you are attacking the mother who just lost her 12 year old kid, and you have sons? I am going to assume you truly do have a heart and will remove that post. I have three wonderful children, and I can tell you countless times when I would tell them something over and over at age 12, and it would go through one ear and right out the other. Do you know why? It’s because they were 12 year old “KIDS”. To sit here and attack the deceased child and the mother is beyond reason. I’ve yet to meet the perfect parent, nor will I. Have a heart and remove the post.
It was my understanding that they said raise your hands not drop the gun which would make sense since he was not holding the gun when approached by the Police. The gun was in his waist band and when the cops said raise your hands but instead of raising his hands as instructed he made the bad choice of reaching for the gun and in that instance the cop had a choice do I stand around and wait to see if it’s real or do I protect myself so I can go home to my family. I’m sure the cop finds no joy in knowing he took the life of a child but he isn’t to blame. The child should have listen to what the officers said and hee would be here today I firmly believe that.
Lisa, he DIDN’T POINT THE GUN AT THE OFFICER. What is there not to understand there? I mean, you’re just lying to yourself. You can say all you want to say but he didn’t point the gun at the cop.
It doesn’t matter whether he pointed the gun at the police, he was a direct threat. What if an armed guy is walking around a mall, weapon draw but not aiming at people, and he ignored or did the complete opposite of what the police instructed him to do…do you think he’d get shot? Hell yeah he would. You know why? Action is always faster than reaction; try this exercise: point a toy gun at a friend and have your friend hold his toy gun at his waist as if holstered, you friend is to try and kill you before you kill him, see how many times he kills you; you may get one or two shots off, but the fact remains you will get shot. And also to those idiots saying “why not tase, why not pepper spay?” You DO NOT meet deadly force (or in this case, what you believe to be deadly force) with less than lethal, that’s just stupid. Next time you’re at a bank that gets robbed, try and pepper spray or tase the guy, good luck. You run the risk of the taser missing or having no affect, same as the pepper spray…not to mention you’ll get yourself killed.
Tamir was not instructed to pick up his shirt and pull out the gun, he was instructed to put his hands up. It doesn’t matter that he was a juvenile, juveniles have and will kill. This kid made a poor decision, really, truly tragic. Sometimes instruction are hard to understand, but since you want to use age as a reason to not follow/understand instructions, check this out: I tell my four-year-old nephew to put his hands up when he plays with his toys, guess what he does…..and he’s 4, not 12.
And lastly, to those that suggest it’s because he was black and suggest the fact as to why they didn’t shoot the Colorado theater shooter as evidence, it’s because he surrendered, he didn’t wave his gun around or pull it from a non-aggressive position to an aggressive position – no, it’s because he knew police were arriving on scene and he threw his gun down, he did not confront or force the police (ie pull gun from waistband) to use lethal force.